The AE911Truth Petition
To the Members of the House of Representatives and of the Senate of the United States of America,
PLEASE TAKE NOTICE THAT:
On Behalf of the People of the United States of America, the undersigned Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth and affiliates hereby petition for, and demand, a truly independent investigation with subpoena power in order to uncover the full truth surrounding the events of 9/11/01 – specifically the collapses of the World Trade Center Towers and Building 7. We believe there is sufficient doubt about the official story and therefore the 9/11 investigation must be re-opened and must include a full inquiry into the possible use of explosives that might have been the actual cause of the destruction of the World Trade Center Twin Towers and Building 7.
Featured Petition Signers
Vic Schlusmans, BSc
Engineer
BSc Electromechanical Engineering, Group T, Leuven, Belgium, 1981
I first believed the official version of 9/11, but I was not aware of the downfall of WTC7 because all focus was on the twin towers. When, years…
Vic Schlusmans, BSc
BSc Electromechanical Engineering, Group T, Leuven, Belgium, 1981
Antwerpen, Belgium
Occupation: Engineer
Retired Industrial Engineer Electro Mechanics, specialization: thermo dynamics
I first believed the official version of 9/11, but I was not aware of the downfall of WTC7 because all focus was on the twin towers. When, years later, I saw the video of WTC7 coming down, I began to become suspicious about the official story. I began to study more and more the events of 9/11. The more I studied, the more I got convinced that 9/11 was an inside job and that WTC1, WTC2 and WTC7 came down by demolition.
Pedro Delarosa, AIA
Architect
Titule de Arquitetecto (Architect), Universidad Autonoma de Santo Domingo, 1994
I hereby petition for, and demand, a truly independent investigation with subpoena power in order to uncover the full truth surrounding the events of 9/11/01 ' specifically the…
Pedro Delarosa, AIA
Titule de Arquitetecto (Architect), Universidad Autonoma de Santo Domingo, 1994
North Providence, RI
Occupation: Architect
Graduated in 1994 as an architect in the Dominican Republic; I've lived in the United States since 2002; AIA member.
I hereby petition for, and demand, a truly independent investigation with subpoena power in order to uncover the full truth surrounding the events of 9/11/01 ' specifically the collapses of the World Trade Center Towers and Building 7.
Gerald Erbach, BA, BArch
BA, B Arch, University of Notre Dame
All the eye witness, visual, and physical evidence do not support the official explanation. We need a real investigation to heal our country. It is important for our…
Gerald Erbach, BA, BArch
BA, B Arch, University of Notre Dame
Chevy Chase, MD
Forty years experience working internationally on historic preservation and slum improvement in 28 countries. Specialist in low income housing and alternative technologies.
All the eye witness, visual, and physical evidence do not support the official explanation. We need a real investigation to heal our country. It is important for our children and our grandchildren to get this straight and to face what really happened.
John Zumbrum
Software Engineering
B. S. Mechanical Engineering, Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology, 2009.
The NIST report inadequately pursued the possibility of explosives, given the buildings came down in symmetrical, free-fall collapse.
John Zumbrum
B. S. Mechanical Engineering, Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology, 2009.
Redwood City, CA
Occupation: Software Engineering
2009 B.S. Mechanical Engineering, 10 years experience building software systems
The NIST report inadequately pursued the possibility of explosives, given the buildings came down in symmetrical, free-fall collapse.
Peter Jakobsson
Software Engineer
B Eng Aeronautical Engineering, University of Glasgow, UK, 1988
I'm grateful to AE911 truth for upholding the principles of evidence based science that are consistent with those I encountered during my early undergraduate studies and training. Their…
Peter Jakobsson
B Eng Aeronautical Engineering, University of Glasgow, UK, 1988
Glasgow, United Kingdom
Occupation: Software Engineer
Graduated with a B.Eng in Aeronautical Engineering from University of Glasgow in 1988. Qualified flying instructor since 1985 and hold EASA Civil Aviation Commercial Pilot's License. Have accumulated 30 years of experience as a business systems analysis professional and developer for a range of companies in the Oil & Gas sectors, Environmental & Retail.
I'm grateful to AE911 truth for upholding the principles of evidence based science that are consistent with those I encountered during my early undergraduate studies and training. Their questions are my questions and I believe that the institutional ethic is undermined by its implicit endorsement of the destruction of valuable data sets, its dismissal of independent inquiry and its bad faith deployment of institutionalised science to subvert the scientific method. The negligence of a single professional, be they medical, scientific or otherwise can result in a custodial sentence. The negligence of a generation of professionals may result in the loss of faith in evidence-based engineering as a tool for good. As such I feel that AE911Truth better represent me in what I was trained to be 'science' than the institutions do at present. I trust this situation will resolve itself eventually to the benefit of all as it always does, hence my membership.
Simon Saba
BSc Mechanical Engineering
The collapse of the buildings leaves a lot of questions unanswered and more research is required to understand what really happened and who really was behind the attach.
Simon Saba
BSc Mechanical Engineering
San Jose, CA
(please do not publish) Simon Saba is a mechanical engineering graduate of Suny buffalo. For most of my career, I have been involved in the laser and fiber optic communications industry. Most recently I am the founder and CEO of Saba motors inc, a silicon valley company commercializing plug in electric roadsters.
The collapse of the buildings leaves a lot of questions unanswered and more research is required to understand what really happened and who really was behind the attach.
Sean Neprud, PE
B.S., Engineering, UC Berkeley
When I found the information about the collapse of the three WTC buildings, I noticed that it is clear that the official account of what caused the collapse…
Sean Neprud, PE
B.S., Engineering, UC Berkeley
San Francisco, CA
I graduated from UC Berkeley in 2002, and began working for an engineering consulting firm in San Francisco in the beginning of 2003, where I continue to work as Mechanical Engineer. I have been a licensed Mechanical Engineer in California since 2006.
When I found the information about the collapse of the three WTC buildings, I noticed that it is clear that the official account of what caused the collapse does not explain all of the observed behavior of the buildings before, during, and after their collapse. I think that a more rigorous investigation is required into what caused these buildings to collapse, regardless of how uncomfortable some of the information that may uncover may be.
Siegmund E. Kosik
B.S.M.E.T. , Penn State University
Very concerned about how, and why WTC 7 came down. The amount of damage to the building prior to its collapse doesn't justify a full collapse into its…
Siegmund E. Kosik
B.S.M.E.T. , Penn State University
Andover, OH
Bachelor of Science Mechanical Engineering Technology, Penn State University. Extensive Supervisory Experience in the Steel Industry.
Very concerned about how, and why WTC 7 came down. The amount of damage to the building prior to its collapse doesn't justify a full collapse into its own footprint. There is not enough main-stream media coverage on this building.
Bill Storey
Electrical Engineer-Audio Engineer (Retired)
Bachelor of Electrical Engineering, The Georgia Institute of Technology, 1971
Retired now,but still someone who believes laws of physics did NOT stop on 9/11/2001. It was obviously controlled demolition. Thank you to all you true patriots.
Bill Storey
Bachelor of Electrical Engineering, The Georgia Institute of Technology, 1971
Ixtapa, KY
Occupation: Electrical Engineer-Audio Engineer (Retired)
Ga Tech CoOp EE student graduate 1971. Navy AE Masters jet program - Pensacola NAS and W Fla U - 1972. Ga Tech Research Engineer - Engineering Experiment Station 1972-76. Retired now,but still someone who believes laws of physics did NOT stop on 9/11/2001. Thank you to all you true patriots.
Retired now,but still someone who believes laws of physics did NOT stop on 9/11/2001. It was obviously controlled demolition. Thank you to all you true patriots.
Forrest Mertz
Architect
Master of Architectural Engineering, Oklahoma State University, 1998
I remember being very surprised by the collapse of the Twin Towers after the planes struck. Despite the damage and fires, it did not seem possible. I also…
Forrest Mertz
Master of Architectural Engineering, Oklahoma State University, 1998
New York, NY
Occupation: Architect
I have a 5 year Bachelor of Architecture and a Master of Architectural (Structural) Engineering from Oklahoma State University. I was licensed in Pennsylvania. I have experience in architectural design and management for commercial and residential projects. Currently, I am pursuing an interest in BIM (building information modelling) and 3D software and its role in presenting and documenting new construction.
I remember being very surprised by the collapse of the Twin Towers after the planes struck. Despite the damage and fires, it did not seem possible. I also remember reports of Building 7 being evacuated because it was expected to come down from sustained damage. I accepted the explanations given by the media. It wasn't until years later that I started examining the research of experts on this and other websites and rethinking my discomfort with the official account. From an understanding of steel failure, I would expect any collapse to be gradual and asymmetric. If the official story were true, it would be a major embarrassment to the US design and construction industry that these towers failed so catastrophically, especially Building 7. I want to stand on the right side of history. We all deserve a real investigation with subpoena power, that explores every possibility.
Chris B. Hills, BSEE
BSEE, University of Utah
There is so much physical evidence to dispel the official story. I join the call for an independent investigation.
Chris B. Hills, BSEE
BSEE, University of Utah
Syracuse, UT
I have worked 10 years as a sonar transducer engineer and have worked 3 years as an ultrasonic engineer currently designing ultrasonic fluid sensors for the medical field.
There is so much physical evidence to dispel the official story. I join the call for an independent investigation.
Eivind Holden, Architecht
degreed & licensed
The free fall of all 3 buildings has very good documentation. The NIST report have no theory or comment to this fact, as far I can see.
Eivind Holden, Architecht
degreed & licensed
Brønnøysund, Nordland, Norway
1973: Oslo arkitekth'gskole, Norway 1973 1974-1986 Rural planning in Finnmark and Nordland, North of Norway. 1986- 2004 Architectural design, Troms' and Br'nn'ysund 2004-2009 Building Manager 2009 Retired
The free fall of all 3 buildings has very good documentation. The NIST report have no theory or comment to this fact, as far I can see.
Petition Signatories
Andrea J. Dinovo, BA
Cleveland, OH
Occupation: Professor, Translator, Interpreter,
Education: B.A. 1972 Cleveland State University
Andrea J. Dinovo, BA
B.A. 1972 Cleveland State University
Cleveland, OH
Occupation: Professor, Translator, Interpreter,
Spanish Translator and Interpreter High School Teacher - Spanish and French 25 years experience Lived in Mexico City for 13 years Speak Spanish fluently, and English, and French Simultaneous interpreting for Hispanic members of community Proofreader for electrical specifications and any other type material Interest in banking, politics, religion, farming, free energy.
There are so many factors indicating the Twin Towers and building 7 were imploded by controlled demolition, it's staggering. Plus the first responders, firefighters, EMS, Tower workers, all heard explosions. Thermate was found. Concrete was reduced to nano sized particles.
Merri Sue Clark, MS, BA
Eugene, OR
Occupation: Teacher, Us History
Education: BA-history, MS-geography
Merri Sue Clark, MS, BA
BA-history, MS-geography
Eugene, OR
Occupation: Teacher, Us History
I teach US history. How can I teach a blatant lie to my students? There are too many contradictions and unexplained or ignored aspects to this story.
I've read several of Dr. Griffin's books and am convinced that we have been told a lie.
Ilona Marshall
Greenbrae, CA
Occupation: Teacher
Ilona Marshall
Greenbrae, CA
Occupation: Teacher
Teacher
Something was fishy when I saw plane (hit) it. I've always believed what you're saying.
Beverly A. Williams
Medford, OR
Occupation: Teacher (Retired)
Education: MA in Applied and Studio Art
Beverly A. Williams
MA in Applied and Studio Art
Medford, OR
Occupation: Teacher (Retired)
80 years old. Divorced twice. 2 children, 3 grandchildren. Retired, internet activist.
As I watched the Towers drop I knew controlled demolition was involved. When Building 7 collapsed, it was even more obvious insiders were involved. When our free press didn't thoroughly investigate I became even more convinced.
Gayla Nelson,
Hulbert, OK
Occupation: Inquisitive American
Education: College Teaching- American Studies
Gayla Nelson,
College Teaching- American Studies
Hulbert, OK
Occupation: Inquisitive American
Retired college professor currently working part time teaching online and on ground for a private university.
I want the truth. There have been way too many discrepancies and Bush was/is shady.
Jennie K. Standish
Marietta, OH
Occupation: Substitute Teacher
Education: Bachelors in Family Studies
Jennie K. Standish
Bachelors in Family Studies
Marietta, OH
Occupation: Substitute Teacher
I currently work with children and adults with disabilities and plan to go back to school for Special Ed.
That is just horrible...i was shocked when I re-watched the footage I couldn't believe what I was hearing and seeing. It makes me sick. I want to know why the live footage was not re aired after it collapsed. And why were the middle support columns ignored in the pancake theory? And why was there news coverage about building 7 collapsing before it even collapsed?
Kyle J. Wells
Newark, OH
Occupation: Teacher
Education: student
Kyle J. Wells
student
Newark, OH
Occupation: Teacher
I am currently perusing a degree in Social Studies Education. Hopefully one day I can teach my students about the atrocities committed by the Bush administration.
I am an active Youtube viewer and 9/11 was an inside job. George W. Bush is a criminal and needs to be held accountable.
Darlene Jones-Owens
Carrollton, GA
Occupation: University Instructor
Education: Master of Education
Darlene Jones-Owens
Master of Education
Carrollton, GA
Occupation: University Instructor
University instructor in the college of education at University of West Georgia.
The scientific evidence that you have presented here is impressive and is basis enough to demand a new investigation.
Vesa Kangas
Lieksa, Finland
Occupation: Teacher
Education: FM,mathematics
Vesa Kangas
FM,mathematics
Lieksa, Finland
Occupation: Teacher
I've been teaching maths, physics etc. for over ten years. I have been very interested in the events of 9/11 since 2003 when I first learned about WTC 7.
Common sense tells the official theory is BS. Can a ten story building collapse in, say, five seconds due to gravity (and fire) alone?
Lynne Harter, BA
Lehi, UT
Occupation: Education
Education: B. A. Humanities, BYU
Lynne Harter, BA
B. A. Humanities, BYU
Lehi, UT
Occupation: Education
Not an architect nor an engineer, but a concerned citizen who has done enough research to doubt the 9/11 Commission's findings.
When I read that Tower #7 fell the same way the North and South towers did, I wondered how that was possible when no plane flew into it. There are many other reasons to doubt official explanations. My bottom line: Innocent lives were lost; the incident was used as an excuse to go to war, where more lives have been lost and money wasted. We deserve the truth, and I am convinced we haven't heard it from our government yet.
Jeffrey M. Field
Las Cruces, NM
Occupation: Teacher's Assistant
Education: M.A. Mass Comm. Univ. of AL
Jeffrey M. Field
M.A. Mass Comm. Univ. of AL
Las Cruces, NM
Occupation: Teacher's Assistant
Journalist for eight years, elementary school teacher for 24 years. Still thinking out-of-the box.
Something just isn't right. Does this point to a grand conspiracy? Will we ever learn the truth?
Trichelle Susila
Melbourne, VIC, Australia
Occupation: Disabilitiy Instructor
Trichelle Susila
Melbourne, VIC, Australia
Occupation: Disabilitiy Instructor
I work as a disability instructor supporting people with disabilities in their community.
After reviewing the evidence from AE911TRUTH I don't believe the World Trade Center buildings collapsed due to fire as they collapsed at freefall speed, straight down in their own footprint. There was also building no 7 which wasn't even hit by plane that came down later that day also at freefall speed into it's own footprint. There is also evidence to support the possible use of explosives used in the destruction of the World Trade Center Twin Towers and building no 7. I support the demand for a truly independent investigation.
Paul Crawford
Ajo, AZ
Occupation: Educator, Community Activist
Education: B.A. Lit, Amer. Univ. of Beirut, Lebanon
Paul Crawford
B.A. Lit, Amer. Univ. of Beirut, Lebanon
Ajo, AZ
Occupation: Educator, Community Activist
My background is in media technology, documentary writing & production, teaching, and community activism. I am currently a semi-retired commercial driver.
Since day one and thereafter, in watching TV and DVD documentary coverage of the collapse of WTC Towers 1 & 2, and of WTC Bldg. 7, I have no doubt that the cause was controlled demolition. The official story is contrary to common sense observation.
Valerie Lasciak, BS
Wailuku, HI
Occupation: Sub Teacher
Education: BS
Valerie Lasciak, BS
BS
Wailuku, HI
Occupation: Sub Teacher
College graduate.Substitute teacher. Saw the building fall from SOHO, 11 blocks away.
The building went down in free fall speed. Not possible without being wired for destruction. WTC7 had no planes hit it. The collapse, in free fall at 5:35, with the police warning people that it was going to collapse, indicates pre-knowledge!
Warren Brush
Maricopa, CA
Occupation: Social Engineer
Education: Applied Ecologist-International Educator
Warren Brush
Applied Ecologist-International Educator
Maricopa, CA
Occupation: Social Engineer
Founder of Quail Springs Learning Oasis and Wilderness Youth Project.
There is clear evidence that a truly independent investigation needs to be conducted about the incidents that occurred on 9/11.
Ed Caccia, Teacher
San Rafael, CA
Occupation: Education
Education: BS
Ed Caccia, Teacher
BS
San Rafael, CA
Occupation: Education
Anisa Abd El Fattah, PhD
Washington, DC
Occupation: Writer/Lecturer
Education: PhD
Anisa Abd El Fattah, PhD
PhD
Washington, DC
Occupation: Writer/Lecturer
Troy L. Miller
Talent, OR
Occupation: Martial Arts Instructor/Web Developer
Troy L. Miller
Talent, OR
Occupation: Martial Arts Instructor/Web Developer
I am a former martial arts instructor, and web site developer. With 28 years experience in martial arts and I am a 3rd degree black belt.
I support a true investigation into the events of 9/11. As a concerned American citizen I feel the people of this great nation have the right and responsibility to know the truth about what happened and how it happened.
Robert F. Huttle, Retired High Sch
San Luis Obispo, CA
Occupation: Teacher (Retired)
Education: BA, English, 1971, Cal Western Univ
Robert F. Huttle, Retired High Sch
BA, English, 1971, Cal Western Univ
San Luis Obispo, CA
Occupation: Teacher (Retired)
Teacher of English, Social Science, San Luis Obispo, CA for 38 years. Assistant director, Central Coast Writing Project at Cal Poly Unversity for 5 years.
I am not convinced that the American public has been told the truth about all that happened on 9/11. I still don't believe Oswald was the lone gunman, either.
Frank A. Castellana, Student
Mcdonough, GA
Occupation: Education
Education: BA, Teacher Education, Clayton State Uni
Frank A. Castellana, Student
BA, Teacher Education, Clayton State Uni
Mcdonough, GA
Occupation: Education
Ron Lusker, MFA
New York City, NY
Occupation: University Teacher
Education: MFA
Ron Lusker, MFA
MFA
New York City, NY
Occupation: University Teacher
I am an artist and inn owner.
A government cover-up must be assumed until studies are conducted.
Teresa Rillos, Teacher
Tucson, AZ
Occupation: Unknown
Education: BS Elementary Education
Teresa Rillos, Teacher
BS Elementary Education
Tucson, AZ
Occupation: Unknown
Mary V. Zelaya, MS
Berkeley, CA
Occupation: Teacher (Retired)
Education: MS
Mary V. Zelaya, MS
MS
Berkeley, CA
Occupation: Teacher (Retired)
I am a retired elementary school teacher who heard Richard Gage speak at Berkeley's Unitarian Universalist Church many years ago.
About 3 weeks after 09/11/2001 I saw a video of the collapse of building 7 at the Humanist Hall in Oakland. There were many young men present who appeared to involved in different areas of construction work. When the collapse of building seven was shown a gasp went up and I heard many whispers of 'perfect demolition!' all throughout the room. Since then I have heard many accounts by various people, including Richard Gage, of what happened on 09/11/2001. Bonnie Faulkner's radio show 'Guns and Butter' covered the topic many times. I have watched several of the videos she offered during KPFA's fund raisers including videos by Richard Gage, David Ray Griffin, and Barbara Honegger, and attended the annual 9/11 film festivals at Oakland's Grand Lake Theater.
Athena Melville, Educator
Talmage, CA
Occupation: Educator
Education: Director - Private Montessori School
Athena Melville, Educator
Director - Private Montessori School
Talmage, CA
Occupation: Educator
I am soon to be 67 years old. I was the Principal/Administrator for a small private Montessori School, which served students K-12. I am now retired, and do some mentoring. I also started a radio web show called EducationNow! over three years ago.
I have followed the story of 9/11 closely, and the evidence by experts is overwhelming in the support that the planes could not have collapsed the and the structures that came down that day.
John M. Trent, BS
Flag Pond, TN
Occupation: Math Teacher
Education: BS Mathematics, auto unit repair special
John M. Trent, BS
BS Mathematics, auto unit repair special
Flag Pond, TN
Occupation: Math Teacher
William A. Piervincenzi, MS
Andes, NY
Occupation: Biological Sciences
Education: M.S. Adelphi University, Garden City, NY
William A. Piervincenzi, MS
M.S. Adelphi University, Garden City, NY
Andes, NY
Occupation: Biological Sciences
I am a retired professor of Biology, Nassau Community College, Garden City, NY, USA.
The collapses seen on video don't conform to the official account given.
Dena M. Johnson
Phoenix, AZ
Occupation: Teacher
Education: student
Dena M. Johnson
student
Phoenix, AZ
Occupation: Teacher
Karen Giles
Portage, PA
Education: College
Karen Giles
College
Portage, PA
I have a BS degree from University of Maryland, am a retired teacher, and examine facts, instead of accepting whatever I am told by media with a conflict of interest.
Multi-ton steel sections were ejected laterally, flying out from the building, not falling down as in a collapse. Concrete and metal was pulverized, it turned to a light colored dust. It didn't just fall down in huge pieces as in a collapse from fire. Tons of molten metal were found under all three Towers. These facts do not fit with a collapse from fire. We must have a truly independent investigation with subpoena power in order to uncover the full truth surrounding the events of 9/11/01
Louise Adams, BA
Bristol, TN
Occupation: Teacher
Education: BA
Louise Adams, BA
BA
Bristol, TN
Occupation: Teacher
Jerry Silverman
Philadelphia, PA
Occupation: Education
Education: Degreed
Jerry Silverman
Degreed
Philadelphia, PA
Occupation: Education
mathematics instructor, jewish school director, college professor, tour guide, citizen
something is very suspicious about building 7!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! how could it fall like buildings 1 and 2, yet no huge amount of jet fuel was responsible for weakening the floors, etc as they have explained about 1 and 2.we need a major investigation.
Michael M. Meade, Adjunct Professo
Mahopac, NY
Occupation: Music
Education: MM (Music performance) Univ. of CT
Michael M. Meade, Adjunct Professo
MM (Music performance) Univ. of CT
Mahopac, NY
Occupation: Music
Cellist (BM Eastman School of Music), Piano Technician (Registered Piano Technician of the Piano Technician's Guild), Adjunct Professor of Music at Manhattanville College, Purchase, NY
As a New York area resident, I have a friend who is a retired NYC firefighter. He worked at Ground Zero, and has a persistent cough. Many of his friends have died or are very sick. My son told me about concerns over the truth of the official version of events after he went to some rallies in Toronto while a student there. After many discussions, I promised him I would look into the matter with an open mind. The forensics about all the 9/11 events are compelling. We need a new, impartial, and well-funded investigation which considers all the evidence which the scientific community of AE911truth.org has found.
Chris L. Muir
Eugene, OR
Occupation: Teacher Of Social Studies
Education: Master's in Teaching
Chris L. Muir
Master's in Teaching
Eugene, OR
Occupation: Teacher Of Social Studies
I have a Masters in teaching from Oregon, and have taught at the middle and high school levels. I have read widely on the official and unofficial accounts of that day, and though I have no firm beliefs, I find too many bizarre details unexplained by the official account. Another investigation therefore seems prudent.
It is my understanding that no building, before or since 9/11, has ever collapsed, and though planes crashing into them is also an anomaly, I have read nothing that adequately explains the collapse of building 7, the building used to coordinate disaster relief after the attacks. This building was hit with limited debris, and such occurrences have happened to other buildings, with nothing approaching the total collapse witnessed on this building. This unaccountable incident weakens the theory of the twin towers collapse due to structural collapse from super-heated melting of the support columns, already arguable due to insufficient heating from jet fuel. With others, i believe only a full, independent investigation will reveal what really happened on that day.
Sigrid Bahrami
KLn, Nrw, Germany
Occupation: Teacher
Education: Degreed
Sigrid Bahrami
Degreed
KLn, Nrw, Germany
Occupation: Teacher
I studied education at Frankfurt/Main University and have been teacher at primary school since 1997.
The collapse of WTC7 can definitely not be explained by means of a simple fire. A fire can not burn down all the columns in the given time and can not even get hot enough to melt the iron/steel.